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Re: [問卦] 中醫仔哪來的自信跟西醫戰

看板Gossiping標題Re: [問卦] 中醫仔哪來的自信跟西醫戰作者
lepputte
(華英成秀)
時間推噓11 推:12 噓:1 →:40

※ 引述《cychine (來自非洲大草原)》之銘言:
: okay
: 事情是這樣的
: 城武剛剛看完蒼瀾鴿水管影片
: 有位中醫仔居然質疑西醫的中耳積水開孔是無稽之談
那位是高醫醫學系(或者是高醫後西醫系)畢業的,修西學中45學分拿中醫執照,

質疑西醫中耳積水開洞,根本是西西大戰,

影片的內容也沒提到甚麼中醫的內容,

中耳積水開洞,蒼藍鴿自己引的第二篇論文中引用的reference再看看

裝通氣管的complication,裝到底有沒有比不裝好?

可能還是得請鴿自己再比較看看

Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews Review - Intervention
Grommets (ventilation tubes) for hearing loss associated with otitis media
with effusion in children
Version published: 06 October 2010 Version history

https://doi-org.lib3.cgmh.org.tw:30443/10.1002/14651858.CD001801.pub3

Main results
We included 10 trials (1728 participants). Some trials randomised children
(grommets versus no grommets), others ears (grommet one ear only). The
severity of OME in children varied between trials. Only one 'by child' study
(MRC: TARGET) had particularly stringent audiometric entry criteria. No trialwas identified that used long‐term grommets.

Grommets were mainly beneficial in the first six months by which time naturalresolution lead to improved hearing in the non‐surgically treated children
also. Only one high quality trial that randomised children (N = 211) reportedresults at three months; the mean hearing level was 12 dB better (95% CI 10
to 14 dB) in those treated with grommets as compared to the controls. Meta‐
analyses of three high quality trials (N = 523) showed a benefit of 4 dB (95%CI 2 to 6 dB) at six to nine months. At 12 and 18 months follow up no
differences in mean hearing levels were found.

Data from three trials that randomised ears (N = 230 ears) showed similar
effects to the trials that randomised children. At four to six months mean
hearing level was 10 dB better in the grommet ear (95% CI 5 to 16 dB), and at7 to 12 months and 18 to 24 months was 6 dB (95% CI 2 to 10 dB) and 5 dB (95%CI 3 to 8 dB) dB better.

No effect was found on language or speech development or for behaviour,
cognitive or quality of life outcomes.

Tympanosclerosis was seen in about a third of ears that received grommets.
在接受通氣管手術的患耳,約1/3會有鼓膜硬化(鈣化)

Otorrhoea was common in infants, but in older children (three to seven years)occurred in < 2% of grommet ears over two years of follow up.

要是沒時間慢慢看,那就看作者結論
Authors' conclusions
In children with OME the effect of grommets on hearing, as measured by
standard tests, appears small and diminishes after six to nine months by
which time natural resolution also leads to improved hearing in the non‐
surgically treated children.
裝通氣管對術後6-9個月後聽力改善效果看起來是不高(small) 並且會逐漸減少
因為即使不開刀治療的小孩也會自然改善

No effect was found on other child outcomes but
data on these were sparse. No study has been performed in children with
established speech, language, learning or developmental problems so no
conclusions can be made regarding treatment of such children.


: 這位老兄中醫仔根本是開地圖砲跟112醫學院開戰了吧
: 蒼瀾鴿好歹是合太醬料栽培畢業的主治
高醫且讀過112醫學院(檢驗科系?) vs 台大醫

: 話說回來中醫仔如果那麼神
: 歐美醫學與各大藥材醫材大廠早就全面採用了
: 中醫的學理要大數據沒大數據
: 要實驗對照組也生不出什麼東西來
大數據沒大數據其實這句話已經不完全正確了,實驗對照組也不是沒有東西

嚴格的說起來,只是這樣的資料逐漸再增加,但是還不多。

但只要提到中醫大抵上很多人就沒辦法理性討論,

所以最終是一種大家各自擁護各自信仰的狀況


今天林如果真的有辦法做到

3個月內顯著改善耳膜積水,並且比隨機分配的natural course的

好,或者與同時間裝通氣管的結果類似,我想也沒甚麼好說。

這個才一錘定音。

: 有沒有中醫仔目中無人的八卦
: 在線等
目中無人,只有自己的,很多人都如此

齊人攫金,

只是比看看誰比較不貪一點而已。

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marktak 06/07 22:24點值就輸你們阿怎樣

Qaaaa 06/07 22:25鄉民是戰中醫根本不是管積水

Qaaaa 06/07 22:25你沒抓到鄉民的重點

戰學歷、戰中醫、戰政治....本來就是常見,大家都有一種莫名的自傲....

※ 編輯: lepputte (114.45.135.24 臺灣), 06/07/2023 22:26:35 ※ 編輯: lepputte (114.45.135.24 臺灣), 06/07/2023 22:29:22

htc314 06/07 22:30中醫有用以前的人都超短命

lepputte 06/07 22:30其實這個重點也不在中醫還是西醫

lepputte 06/07 22:31這要看公衛跟醫療資源,懂得人就知道

lepputte 06/07 22:32htc依然堅挺還沒倒嗎?

peterwww 06/07 22:33以前人超短命? 哪來的數據?

lepputte 06/07 22:33下一個會算皇帝的壽命

ritah 06/07 22:34我有一些朋友考後中連年不上後就開始整天

lepputte 06/07 22:34相關變成因果推論也真的是好笑了

peterwww 06/07 22:34其實不用爭 遇到了 就會自動歸位了

ritah 06/07 22:34幹中醫…

choujim 06/07 22:34偽科學

peterwww 06/07 22:35東基兩個幼童重症 用清冠調配救回

peterwww 06/07 22:35清冠一號 救了好多人

peterwww 06/07 22:36重點是 還不貴 (比起抗病毒藥物)

lepputte 06/07 22:36謹慎一點的說是得RCT才能真正知道藥物療

peterwww 06/07 22:36沒救回來 堅持科學 西醫 是真理 有用嗎

peterwww 06/07 22:37人都死了 討論西醫優 有用嗎

lepputte 06/07 22:37效,沒有隨機分組對照,藥物效果會不確

lepputte 06/07 22:37知,至少得看cohort才可能勉強推知

lepputte 06/07 22:38門診的療效是由很多因素綜合而成

lepputte 06/07 22:39當然沒有更好的證據 case series也只能

lepputte 06/07 22:40將就著用 等到有$$$去做隨機分組試驗

peterwww 06/07 22:40https://reurl.cc/WGr89k

peterwww 06/07 22:41人家中醫救人 有人敢大言不慚說沒用

peterwww 06/07 22:42你厲害你來 哪來的自信?

peterwww 06/07 22:42也還好東基的醫生願意中西會診

choujim 06/07 22:44中醫這麼厲害明天開始西醫通通門關起來好

peterwww 06/07 22:45家人確診兩次 清冠一號都立刻奉上

choujim 06/07 22:45了 不管是癌症盲腸炎肺結核心梗通通送中

greensdream 06/07 22:45幫補血,這板就只會捧西醫

choujim 06/07 22:45

peterwww 06/07 22:46有人喜歡看西醫 我們都尊重

peterwww 06/07 22:46敢說中醫沒效 究竟哪來的底氣跟自信

choujim 06/07 22:48沒有雙盲怎麼證明有效?

choujim 06/07 22:49有效有很多種 你知道安慰劑效應嗎?

WindSucker 06/07 22:59結果不是中醫有效

smallgigi 06/07 23:00西醫那麼厲害把科學儀器全部拿走,看厲

smallgigi 06/07 23:00害在哪,科學儀器是機械跟電機,跟西醫

smallgigi 06/07 23:01沒半點屁關係。

smallgigi 06/07 23:01消毒藥水、殺菌是化學,跟西醫沒半點屁

smallgigi 06/07 23:01關係。真的那麼厲害,把化學、機電拿掉

smallgigi 06/07 23:01看還剩什麼。

viable 06/07 23:41中醫不看資料的話算的出人話生理年紀是多

viable 06/07 23:41少嗎?

viable 06/07 23:41*人的生理年紀

meRscliche 06/08 00:24只信 RCT

kennings 06/08 02:20

choujim 06/08 07:05嘿嘿和西醫共同發展的是科學儀器和中醫共

choujim 06/08 07:05同發展的是針灸的針拔罐的罐

fxp51203 06/08 09:44科學跟西醫怎麼會沒關係?邏輯有問題吧