Re: [情報] Cruise L4自駕配備人類駕駛

chandler0227 發表於 2024/5/14 下午6:20:24

看板car標題Re: [情報] Cruise L4自駕配備人類駕駛作者

chandler0227

(錢德勒)時間May 14 18:20:24 2024推噓 6 推:6 噓:0 →:19

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[自駕]

1. 兩套以上獨立的自駕系統(備援、冗餘)
2. 承1，兩套系統可以互相檢視比對，一旦發生失效，系統會自行偵測到失效
3. 失效後在人不介入(接管)的條件下仍能保持安全
4. 重新恢復運作需要靠人接管

[輔助]

1. 系統單一
2. 當系統做了錯誤判斷，沒有另一套機制，所以系統壓根不知道產生錯誤
3. 系統無法自行偵測失效
4. 全仰賴在駕駛座的駕駛人注意和隨時接管

像Waymo這類自駕車

駕駛方式很笨拙，在限定區域的開放道路運行仍有一堆bug問題(卡住、逆向)

這些bug失效無法預期哪時出現，但發生當下系統
1. 能偵測到失效
2. 在人尚未接管下保持安全性

簡單講就是滿足失效安全

直到人類接管並恢復運作

Criuse則是輾死前車撞飛的人，即便車能停下但無法確保安全性，被要求需要安全駕駛

FSD會在絕大多數(99.9%)的條件下駕駛方式更接近人類

但機器學習、AI不可能訓練到完美(可能餵越多數據反而造成某些場景應對退步)

所以當今天遇到那極低的0.1%情況

系統出錯但系統並不認為失效(也沒法偵測到失效)

就得全靠駕駛人判斷是否要立即介入接管

像是ISO 26262功能安全、ISO 21448預期功能安全(SOTIF)、FIT(Failures In Time)

這些都是政府核准自駕牌照的依據，之前也都提過了

※ 引述《LimYoHwan (gosu mage)》之銘言：
: https://tinyurl.com/bvkhn237
: 簡易翻譯：
: Cruise公司表示,他們將恢復採用有安全駕駛員監督的自動駕駛模式。這是因為他們去年: 發生的一起無人駕駛事故後,暫時停止了無人駕駛服務,並進行了全面的安全評估。
: 經過評估後,Cruise決定先恢復自動駕駛,但仍然會有安全駕駛員在車內監督。這可以在提: 供自動駕駛功能的同時保證乘客安全。
: https://i.imgur.com/WVhDrCF.jpeg

: Cruise表示,這種監督式自動駕駛模式只是過渡階段,他們最終的目標仍然是實現完全無人: 駕駛。此次事故顯示,即使是先進的自動駕駛技術,在實際運營中仍需要更謹慎的安全措施: 。
: 齁，cruise配備這麼多感知設備，一堆光達，也有備援系統，且通過政府法規認證可以運: 行無人計程車，啊怎麼車上又放人了，那我可以認為「人」才是備援嗎？那些光達根本: 沒屁用…..
: 自駕的瓶頸是AI問題還是光達、硬體問題？
: 車版大師表示？
: Starting this week, Cruise AVs will begin supervised autonomous driving in Pho: enix as Cruise takes further steps towards returning to its driverless mission: .
: For the past several weeks Cruise has been mapping and collecting road informa: tion in Phoenix. Now, we will validate our AV’s end-to-end behaviors against: our rigorous safety and AV performance requirements. During this phase, the Cr: uise vehicles will drive autonomously with a safety driver present behind the: wheel to monitor and take over if needed.
: Supervised autonomous driving is a critical validation phase prior to driverle: ss deployment and builds on our extensive work in simulation, closed-course dr: iving and more than 5 million driverless miles previously driven by our fleet: to ensure safe performance on real-world roads and driving scenarios. Safety d: rivers play an important role in testing the AV’s performance and the continu: ous improvement of our technology. We’ll begin supervised autonomous driving: in the city of Phoenix and will gradually expand to Scottsdale, Paradise Valle: y, Tempe, Mesa, Gilbert and Chandler measured against predetermined safety ben: chmarks.
: Safety is the defining principle for everything we do and continues to guide o: ur progress towards resuming driverless operations. From comprehensive vehicle: management before our AVs depart the garage to continuous driver monitoring a: nd roadworthiness of the vehicle, we deploy rigorous safety procedures, protoc: ols and performance requirements to ensure supervised autonomous operations ar: e safe for operation on public roads.
: Our safety measures and procedures are multifaceted and can be grouped into th: ree pillars:
: Product Safety: Cruise AVs are fully-integrated autonomous vehicles derived fr: om the Chevy Bolt EV platform, manufactured by General Motors, and tested to v: alidate that the vehicles meet all motor vehicle safety requirements after th: e addition and installation of Cruise AV hardware (sensors, etc.). We have pro: cedures in place to ensure our AVs are appropriately maintained and that new s: oftware is thoroughly tested and validated through a measured release process: prior to deploying to the fleet.
: Operational Safety: We have documented procedures and protocols in place to en: sure the safety of our fleet operations for those in our vehicles and those we: share the road with, including driver training, ongoing performance managemen: t processes, and responsible scaling of operations.
: Enterprise Safety: Safe operations start with a safety-focused culture, and ev: ery worker at Cruise is empowered and responsible for the safety of our produ: ct and operations. We enable safety culture through appropriate governance, po: licies, reporting mechanisms, and regular safety training.
: We are committed to partnering with the communities we serve, so whether human: -driven or autonomous, we encourage any community member to report driving con: cerns to our Community Feedback portal. When a concern is submitted, we will i: nvestigate the claim and, as needed, take appropriate action. Our feedback for: m: getcruise.com/support-center
: As we continue through this journey, we look forward to working with local com: munities to jointly achieve our shared mission of making transportation safer: for all.

※ PTT留言評論

※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 114.34.222.29 (臺灣)

※ 文章網址:

https://www.ptt.cc/car/E.h0SuSeQNSzes

※ 編輯: chandler0227 (114.34.222.29 臺灣), 05/14/2024 18:21:35

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pippen200205/14 18:23結論: 不太好?

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XXXXBANG05/14 18:27FSD會越來越爛其他廠牌的只會越來越進步

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alaokj05/14 19:04錢大文也是先推再看了啦~

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LimYoHwan05/14 19:34好像不是你說呢捏

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LimYoHwan05/14 19:34https://i.imgur.com/H4ChvKf.jpeg

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bmw530li05/14 20:01演算法就算聰明，但Sensor只有一套時，誤判就會車禍(演

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bmw530li05/14 20:02算法完全信了)，所以才一直要求要備援機制自我驗證，而

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bmw530li05/14 20:02不是很相信自己的破攝影機就輾過去(躺著的貨櫃車表示：

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bmw530li05/14 20:02其他廠商自知還不成熟，所以沒人敢明目張膽的大吹特吹

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bmw530li05/14 20:03更沒人敢躲在Lv2放消費者去幫忙測試

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arabeske05/14 20:36類神經網路到底從訓練中學習得什麼真的不好驗證。AI算

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arabeske05/14 20:36圖1個frame 出錯人眼沒看到就算了，但自駕可會出人命

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LimYoHwan05/14 20:36撞貨櫃就是兩套camera+radar 這特黑有夠不專業的而且

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LimYoHwan05/14 20:36多久以前還是ap 不是fsd 笑死

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LimYoHwan05/14 20:38你那邊還來得及all in nVDA

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LimYoHwan05/14 20:46演算法要兩套你大腦是不是也要兩個

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StarburyX05/14 20:57其實無論你用哪種方案都逃不了AI

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StarburyX05/14 20:58掌握算力就掌握AI 就掌握自駕

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StarburyX05/14 20:59現在不走端到端AI 基本就是死路

E2E的確是因為特斯拉才開始廣泛被一般民眾知道但畢竟也不是特斯拉首創或獨創 E2E背後關鍵是DRL(深度強化學習)技術例如幾年前的圍棋AlphaGo就是用DQN結合蒙地卡羅法 DRL也很早大量應用在自駕感知 (但決策和控制模塊) 即便DRL有極大發展潛力，有效解決傳統模塊分層的諸多問題但依舊存在實際應用安全跟缺乏可解釋性等問題跟自駕車應用安全相關的： Mobileye提出的RSS(Responsibility-Sensitive Safety)安全模型 Nvidia提出的SFF(Safety Force Field)

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StarburyX05/14 20:59Waymo cruise都一攤死水

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StarburyX05/14 21:00Mobile eye 沒聲音專注在賣車廠基本方案

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StarburyX05/14 21:00對岸華為還有一戰之力

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StarburyX05/14 21:01解決自駕最重要的就是算力

※ 編輯: chandler0227 (114.34.222.29 臺灣), 05/14/2024 22:14:37

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bmw530li05/15 00:34自己做不好就全世界都不准做好XDDD

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